Monday, February 24, 2014

Don't Like Kids? How Very Childish.







An open letter to the miserable person who slipped this message under my sister's door in a hotel in Colorado this morning.


Dear Parent of Infinite Wisdom,

First of all, I only write this in order to reassure my sister and brother-in-law that they are not doing anything wrong. You are undoubtedly a nasty person regardless of the situation you find yourself in and how others are treating you, so on the off-chance you even see this I hold little hope it will effect your outlook on life. Is it fair for me to judge you by one nastygram? At least as fair as your judgement of someone based on what you can hear through a wall, I suppose.

In your haste to pass judgement on others and whitewash your own memory of what parenting is like, you have forgot to check yourself for the very inconsideration and selfishness you abhor. You decided to lash out at others who were unaware of your plight or discomfort, at least until you left a cowardly letter after the fact at which point any opportunity they might have to try to alleviate your unfortunate situation had passed. Perhaps, if you had yelled back or pounded on the headboard then the thinness of the walls would have been more evident to the struggling parents. Then again, such an act of directness would have identified yourself as the petty selfish person you are. Personally, I think you knew that, which is why instead, you decided to lay your opinion out anonymously and with no consideration of what was happening within the room or who the people are you were addressing. You knew all you needed to know; "Someone is doing something I don't like! I should cry about it." Sound familiar? The baby was cutting teeth, what is your excuse?

Here are a few of the things you didn't know.

My brother-in-law helps more people before you get out of bed and have your morning coffee than you have likely helped in your entire life. He operates on brains and misses out on an awful lot of time with his wife and child so that he can use his knowledge and skill to help adults and children alike (even the selfish ones) with a second chance. He saves lives. This week he is in Colorado for a conference where he can learn to better treat you if you happen to fall from a snow-lift, get thrown from your high horse, faceplant into a tree while skiing down the black diamond trail or have the misfortune to trip over your own self-righteousness and fall down the stairs head first. Personally, I don't blame him for wanting to take his family with him to a convention rather than missing out on another week full of memories so that he can be the best surgeon. It's a great job, a rewarding job, but not one without sacrifices.

My niece usually sleeps pretty well, and is not known for screaming in the middle of the night. If she were constantly having this issue both parents would be in a mental institution and you wouldn't have been disturbed. Newsflash: a night in the room with a screaming toddler is even harder than being next door and not something parents willingly plan for on holiday. From the far side of the wall, one cannot see the parents scrambling, attempting to feed the baby, rock the baby, shush the baby, walk around, rack their brains for a way to make the crying stop for the their sake, for their neighbor's sake and not least of all for the helpless child's sake.

As for my sister, she is a kind and considerate parent, a dependable friend and an amazing wife. She is a first-time mother with a law degree who decided that spending time with and raising her daughter are the top priorities in her life. As a stay-home mother, I'm sure she jumped at the chance to get out of the house. What stay-home parent wouldn't? Sure, it is true, she's still learning the ropes. Can you remember what that was like? Do you remember thinking you knew your child's routines only to learn at an inopportune time that you don't really know much of anything? This usually occurs on the rare evening out with the whole family, or on a crowded airplane or when rooming next to the Prince or Princess of Passive Aggressiveness on the side of a mountain in Colorado. On those occasions, when your child transformed into a yelling, crying, sobbing ball of heartache you might recall your ears burning and your face flushing red with embarrassment. You may remember the hopeful feeling that there will not be a person like you around. Someone willing to belittle you rather than offer support, someone willing to call you a bad parent and a selfish person because you have somehow conspired to ruin their day, their meal or their trip.

Well, guess what, perfect parent?! Your kids ruined things for other people too. As a matter of fact, you ruined more than one evening for others when you were a little tyrant yourself. The same is true for every adult walking the planet, unless their parents kept them tranquilized or frozen in carbonite until graduation. Maybe you didnt' know, but it happened. That is the way of the world, this is not a hermetically sealed, adults only dystopia where nothing unexpected occurs to anyone. If you want to guarantee a trip with those parameters (and since you obviously planned for this years in advance) then plan a little better and rent a freaking cabin or bring a set of ear plugs.

If it's not a child, it will be a dog, if it's not a dog, it will be a group of drunken fraternity members, or a construction crew, or a leaky faucet. Maybe loud lovers, the TV in the next room, or a neighbor who leaves their radio clock on all night that will disturb your slumber. It's always something isn't it? I know the feeling. It sucks, but these things happen. Sometimes they are due to inconsideration and more often due to accident or happenstance. The question is not if, but when, something will taint our dreams of the perfect vacation, dinner or plane ride. I teach my children we can't control the actions of others, but we can control our own reactions. We can choose every day whether to let life's little inconveniences make us miserable, or we can choose to smile and carry on. Better still, we can decide to try to make the world a better place; to lend a hand instead of pointing a finger.

You, on the other hand, choose to spew hatred and judgement on others even when it will bring no change to your own situation. You didn't say anything when the young parents could have done something. Choosing instead to leave a parting note to let them know what terrible people they are. Be honest, the note was not for the good of the world, it was for retribution. It was your way of doling out karma. I hope you are proud of yourself.

I am sorry for you. I'm sorry for your children. Pat yourself on the back for never having your child wake another human (yeah, right) all you want, but when it comes to measuring the value of another person or the extremes of their selflessness (or selfishness) most of us would prefer to take a larger view and maybe learn something about the situation and it's participants before we cast our stones.

I know little about you, maybe you were just cranky and writing without thinking. Maybe you are too stupid to relieve yourself with some Tylenol PM or earplugs or by calling the front desk to ask about options before spending a second night in wretched misery within the 7th circle of Hell. Maybe you are a really great person who helps others with every spare minute not spent on holiday at a ski resort or judging other people's parenting based on cries in the night. Then again, maybe you are just an asshole.


Good day,
Dad On The Run

P.S. Lil' sis. Keep doing what you are doing. Your child is a part of this world and just as much entitled to it as the next person. Those who wish to have a child-free experience have plenty of adults only options for vacation accommodations. Love you.


Hey new readers! I'm not all controversy all the time. I also talk about the funnier and less angry parts of being a dad! Check out the Dad on the Run Facebook page and join the conversation!

151 comments:

  1. Your poor sister and BIL. You never know what is going to happen travelling with kids. It's not like they purposely made the baby cry to make this woman's stay miserable. It's ridiculous to think that she suggests they were being selfish for bringing their baby on a family vacation. Karma is a bitch lady and I have a feeling you are going to get yours.

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  2. Holy cow. That letter was uncalled for. I would've suggested ear plugs, too. I'm betting a lot of hotels have them handy. Me, on the other hand- nature gave me the wonder of deafness, so no noise wakes me up. Good job sticking up for your sister.

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  3. "YOUR baby's screams ruined MY sleep" ... "We need more people who THINK OF OTHERS and less SELFISH ones"


    I think she answered her own rude letter. Perhaps by thinking of others, she could have slept better and helped out your sister at the same time. Or maybe by being less selfish, she could have realized her vacation wasn't the only thing that mattered that day.

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  4. I had a similar situation on a transatlantic flight with a young couple and their baby when people seated nearby started sighing and tutting loudly as they tried to comfort and care for thier distressed little one. I didn't see the fuss and their was options to put on headphones in any case. They actually managed to soothe quite quickly but people's tolerances was surprisingly short and once one started others seemed encouraged to do the same. I only wish I had shown some support to the couple and would if it happened again as I am usually that sort of person.

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  5. I wonder how your sister would have responded if this woman (who apparently had kids of her own at one point) came next door and offered to help? I mean, she wasn't sleeping anyway... Lord, some people.

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  6. Jen @ Real Life ParentingFebruary 25, 2014 at 9:07 AM

    A perfect skewering of a self absorbed asshat.

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  7. Some people are so self absorbed it never occurs to them that your sister might have done all she could to quiet the baby. Sometimes we do our best and kids still cry, it happens. Life is full of things moments that are irritating, a crying baby is the least of it.

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  8. I totally sympathize with the situation for both couples. I just don't see why anyone would handle it this way. What good did it do?

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  9. Indeed. I didn't get it before I had kids. Even if I have my own children now, I'll try to help others within the area who might be struggling. Thanks for stopping by!

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  10. They probably would have flipped their lid on anyone messing with them at that point, lol. However, I think a tap on the wall or a call to the front desk would at least have made it clear they could be heard. Not exactly helpful, but still, if it has you so mad you might as well say something. I'd just cover my head, and call the front desk in the morning. Once they received the letter, my sister and BIL went to the desk and inquired about complaints and volunteered to move. The front desk reported no complaints or requests to move.

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  11. Yes, Alex, no doubt. Thanks for reading!

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  12. I don't know why people think small humans are less entitled to experiencing the world. Thanks for the share!

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  13. Definitely, Jack. Probably the kind of person that complains about a traffic jam caused by an accident. We're all on this little rock together, sometimes it gets crowded.

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  14. Great post. This ass-hat has no right to criticize anyone. C'mon lady, learn to at least string a few words together in a way that sounds halfway intelligent. Even I can do that, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. Since she's always putting others first she should have knocked on the door and asked if your sister needed anything. Maybe even room service with some food and a note saying "I hear you're having a rough night, have some nachos and wine on us." She probably can't ski either. #fukher

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  15. I had a similar situation going to eat at a restaurant. I was with my cousin and her kids at a steak house. We were eating and the kids were getting rambunctious. The people sitting behind us were whispering how you shouldn't take kids to a restaurant. It was quite rude. Honestly if your going out to eat there will be kids around just like at a hotel. Things like this are a family place.

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  16. I have to admit, I wouldn't think to help, that's a great idea. I would however realize that shit happens and work to improve my own situation rather than crapping on someone else's.

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  17. Lock the kids up until they are older or eat only at Chuck E Cheese? What are parents supposed to do? Given some of the teens without parents I've seen out and about, I think maybe their parents never took them anywhere and taught them how to act in public, haha. Thanks for reading and commenting!

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  18. Someone give this man a cookie, now!

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  19. What a bitch lol. I hope she does see this!

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  20. You are awesome and spot on. Please give your sister a hug, thank her for being a tremendous parent and tell her that she's doing things right by including her child actively in her life. Also, please tell her that I feel her pain as my husband and I, just last weekend, spent a screaming night in a hotel room with a teething toddler at a ski resort. Wasn't what we had expected either but... Life happens! I choose to do it WITH my child and ignoramuses can go pound salt!

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  21. That definitely sounds like a woman that wrote this. You know who I really feel bad for? The person that married him/her, unless they are exactly the same. I am married to a fantastic man who is in the Navy. I had a great career in sales and marketing management and then realized what your sister did. I won't get this time back, so I quit my job, and after sending my oldest daughter to school from pre-k to now 2nd grade, I just took her out (I can't afford private school, I don't like the public school here and we are stationed in Italy-not many other options) to homeschool her. When I made that decision I pretty much ensured that I won't be going back to work out of the home. Many thanks to your sister for her contribution to stay at home moms (sometimes we feel the need to validate that-that we are intelligent and don't sit around eating bon bons or shopping all day) and YES we jump at the chance to get out of the house for a change of pace. Also, many many thanks to your wonderful brother in law for his life saving work. I'm by nature a smart ass, so when people have commented or given me a look when my husband was deployed, I'm grocery shopping and the toddler throws a tantrum and the older one tries to run away I let loose. Then again, that's different, because I'm getting the chance to defend myself. Your poor sister didn't have that option. Incidentally, I'm also long winded. Love your articles and posts, by the way. Mad respect to you for being a stay at home dad, too!

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  22. I do not understand being a parent not being a father myself but someone bitching about someone bitching makes them no better you are asking for someone to understand your hardships and understanding without doing the first in same... I do not believe having children or not having them makes me childish I am unable to be what you are to take full responsibility for another to bring them into this world and teach them what they need to know tbh I think its just you venting your stress none of which is wrong but you should not condemn someone for not knowing your world when you do not know them

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  23. Thanks for stopping by, Amy! I'll certainly pass along the message!

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  24. Thank you, Amy, I appreciate that. You may have noticed I'm kind of long-winded too, lol.

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  25. The person was a parent. That guarantees they knew they know something about the nature of children. As for my condemnation I hardly think that writing an anonymous letter to an anonymous writer is any way condemning anyone. You may have noticed the irony was intentional. I mentioned that it was not any more fair for me to judge them by one note than for them to judge the parents based on the overheard crying. I don't think anyone is childish because they don't have children either. Thanks for stopping by.

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  26. I personally have 3 children I agree with the the letter writer don't take your baby to a ski resort that doesn't make any goddamn sense All you bitches can sit there on your high horses about how family time is what they were after but we all know you would be just as pissed if someone brought a baby to the ADULT resort you were at. I would "As a mother of 3" and if I'm on vaca. ("babies can't ski") and I get woke in the middle of the night by someone elses screaming larve I'm gonna do more than just leave a forboding letter. Once the noise has stopped...and by then I can't fall asleep don't think for one second I'm not gonna pound on their door to annoy them as much as I have been. All your people on your high horses making the writer of this letter out to be the BAD GUY are a bunch of dick riding superficial dweebs who need the attention for more than this letter requires

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  27. The resort has a kids' club and provides cribs for the babies. I actually would be upset if my sleep was disturbed, and I'd do something about it rather than seethe for 2 days then leave a nasty letter that doesn't help anyone. As for banging on the door... I'm not sure that would have the intended effect of helping you get your sleep. In fact, that would probably result in a very bad scene indeed. Now be nice or you'll be asked to leave.

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  28. i don't understand why she didn't get up and help if she's had kids of her own. doesn't she understand that these thing's happen and out of our control. sometimes there is nothing you can do apart from hold the baby and let them cry. that letter was inconsiderate, selfish and horrendous. people these day's

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  29. Or leave them home until they graduate, apparently. LOL. Thanks for reading, I agree.

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  30. Anyone who has ever traveled much knows that it can be very noisy in hotels and motels. Earplugs are sold almost everywhere nowadays. so yes some asshat.

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  31. Agreed. I don't like disturbances either, but they come in all forms. Be prepared, right?

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  32. Well written reply letter. So true that they would never see the parents doing what it takes to try to quiet her out of consideration for others. Me and my wife recently took our first trip after having our first and we were so nervous. It all ended well and no complaints but could have been much worse I suppose...seeing this letter.


    One of my biggest fears was going to restaurants and being worried about her crying and bothering other people and a few times it has happened but when you look around as you are trying to calm her, you notice everyone around you are giving you these understanding smiles. Those folks are good people.

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  33. Reading between the lines of the original letter...

    It seems as though the writer would never have brought their kids to the hotel unless they had 'help' in taking care of the kids. And could not understand why one would want to bring kids to a ski resort (they can't ski!) - snow is obviously not fun for kids. And it's more logical to leave the kids at home where there is no skiing than bring them with to be with mum and dad. It may annoy the other hotel guests.

    The letter writer is obviously a parent but from the sounds of the letter - not a very involved one.

    Pity.

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  34. Its hard for people like this to help even if they have kids themselves. They are obviously the type whose kids were raised by babysitters and nannies, and never took there kids on vacation anywhere. If they had raised there kids they wouldnt have mentioned these facts. To me your sister and BIL are doing it right, even if it upsets someone along the way.

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  35. Wow.... bad . Good to know this person iant smart enough to get another room.

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  36. Yeah...all that. Plus, frustrated skier, the place that is a Ski resort for you is also the everyday home to all the people who live there the rest of the year. And relatives actually go to visit these people, who may not have extra bedrooms. I know, I used to live in a resort town. So the assumption that the only reason to be in a hotel near a ski resort is to ski is, frankly, flawed and ignorant.

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  37. I can see both sides to this issue...On the one hand, the letter-writer has a point: Should parents of very young children bring them on vacations, especially those where they stay in a public hotel and will inevitably be up at night wailing, ruining the sleep of the other patrons? Perhaps these parents could have solved this issue entirely by either keeping the baby at home with a trusted family member (e.g. grandparents) or by renting a vacation house or condo instead of a hotel room. I think the hotel could have been smarter about their placement of this family's room and situated them further away from other guests. After all, the person writing the letter has a point: paying for a hotel room at a ski resort and spending the night up with someone else's screaming child is definitely not what you sign up for. Parents sign up to have children, though, so the responsibility to consider others really is on them. What the parents do for a living is frankly irrelevant.
    On the other hand, parents of small children have the right to vacation just like anyone else does. In fact, they probably need the vacation more than those without children. The public at large should remain empathetic to the struggles of parents and the unpredictable nature of children. Perhaps the person writing the letter could have approached the hotel staff and requested to be moved to another room, farther away from the young family and solved this problem themselves.

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  38. Wow the nerve of some people really. I have two kids a 4 year old and a 11 month old and I'm a single parent so I don't hardly have help, but my mother and I just recently stayed in a hotel with my kids they were good but they had older kids running up and down the hallway my mom politely called the front desk and told them about. Just because in the letter she said she leaves her kids at home when she goes to places like that because she isn't sulfish but I know when I go on vacation I love my kids to come along because I love to spend time with them. So the obvious you know she not a family type vacation person. People like this makes me mad that she said she is considered of others but your not you wasn't when you wrote the letter to them I'm sure your sister and brother-in-law are doing a wonderful job as parents they shouldn't let stupidity get to them and always treasure your moments with your kids. They grow up so fast so of course you want to take them on vacation and spend time with them.

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  39. Exactly. If I don't do something to change my situation, ie talk to the hotel about a different room or having a conversation with the family next door, I'm not going to log a cowardly bomb at them as I leave.

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  40. What a long-winded, unnecessary response to the original letter. They are just venting at having had a terrible night's sleep. Take it on the chin and forget about it, I bet they have.

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  41. The perfect example of how someone who was inconvenienced decided to lash out rather than resolve. I wish more people would remember that we've all been forgiven for inconveniencing others without even knowing it at one time or another, and learn to forgive, move on, as well.

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  42. Few things in blogging are "necessary," took me about 15 or 20 minutes to write though. I enjoyed it. I am not upset, my chin remains in good shape and the parents in the story enjoyed the rest of their stay. The little one even slept normally for the rest of the trip

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  43. What a terrible way to make somebody feel bad about themselves. I hope your sister and her family realise that they have done nothing wrong, kids cry, life goes on. It's nothing new, it's not an anomaly and it certainly isn't a disease, it's life and it will go on. Loved the post, i just wish i lived in a world where help was passed around, and not judgement!

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  44. Can I just say THANK YOU!! I just had a similar conversation on facebook just a couple days ago except mine involved the fact that if your children and misbehaving at WALMART or another shopping establishment, that as a parent you should leave with your child in tow and taint the shopping trip of the people around you!! I said that while in fact in a perfect world that could be the case, some of us have no option and have to just go with it and finish the shopping trip. I was informed that if I stayed that was not teaching my children manners or respect for others and it also showed that I was not doing my job as a parent. To me manners and respect also include maybe smiling at or giving the struggling mother a little comfort somehow, instead of judging her parenting skills, giving them a dirty look, or even cutting in between her and her children as for some reason your time is more valuable that that of hers. The other parties then said that it should not be her job to be supportive to her instead it was my job as a mother to ensure that I do not disturb her shopping trip with my children. The fact that they were misbehaving in public for a time should not be her fault but mine. This conversation went on and ended in another responder calling me a baby and telling me that my getting involved in the conversation and voicing my opinion that I was not doing my job as a mother and should get off the computer and check on my children

    I was the only one, who would admit at least that my children do not always behave in public, and ended up feeling as if I was doing something wrong as a parent. I have always felt that I would rather raise my children to be respectful of other by being sympathetic, caring, and considerate and not always looking to others to ensure that their experience of life is 'enjoyable'. So I felt as if I was wrong...this article gives me a bit of hope that maybe I am not totally screwing them up...

    So again THANK YOU!!

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  45. First...that's what a blog is.


    Second...no. Sometimes children scream and cry. Most often, you have NO idea when they are going to do it. It will be an unscheduled, irrational response to something, anything.


    Third...some people are just jerks. My kids were on some of their best behavior EVER in the continental breakfast area of a hotel. There was some laughter...another thing kids do - thank goodness. And this piece of...work...approaches my wife and tells her to control our kids or we had no business being in a public location. Talk about irrational responses. In the words of the author...it was childish.

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  46. How many letters have you written to parents travelling with kids?

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  47. Parents are selfish and think the world owes them when their kids behave badly. If you can't handle your kid don't take them out. I am not raising your kid because you refuse to parent it.

    I have to deal with this all the time in retail where parents watch their kids throw stuff all over the place where I work and do nothing about it.

    You people make me sick

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  48. How is he spewing judgement on your sister? She didn't shut her kid up and woke up the neighbors on vacation? Instead of taking the blame for being a bad parent you make excuses for her.

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  49. people who don't want kids in hotels and resorts should look for those that offer a 'no kids under 7 policy'

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  50. You could have taken your kids outside, explained why it was not okay to behave like that, and if they were going to, then they would not receive xxxxxx (tv time, gaming time, etc). Then when they had settled down, tell them that you will reward them for GOOD behavior. That's what my mom did, and as a result we both were respectful and quiet in public places. It's not just rude to other people when your kids misbehave, it's reinforcing your kids' bad behavior and telling them that they can get away with anything. If you want them to be successful in life, they can't be self-entitled and they have to make accommodations for other people.

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  51. Because small children have no sense of how the affect other people. They cry, or run around and bother other people, or scream in restaurants… I've even seen kids hitting strangers for no reason and laughing about it. Yes, parents have it rough, but they need to actually PARENT and teach their kids that these behaviors are not okay, and if the continue to behave that way, then the entire family will leave and the kids will have privileges taken away. The rest of us have learned these lessons and so we have "earned our right" to a peaceful environment. Everyone goes through childhood, and everyone needs to learn proper behavior. I understand sometimes there's nothing else you can do about a screaming baby, but maybe leave the little ones at home or, when they're screaming in a hotel, take them downstairs to a quiet lobby, go outside for a gentle walk, or drive around. Sometimes you have to take the baby out of the comfy environment and let it do its thing in an appropriate place.

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  52. Thanks, Amy, I appreciate you stopping by and dropping a line!

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  53. It is inevitable, I understand others' frustrations, but it's all in how you handle it right? Can't be mad at the world all the time. Shit happens as they say. As for your story... really? WalMart? Because that's known as a hub of silence and tranquility. Haha. Thanks for reading!

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  54. I appreciate your point of view. I don't think I made a big deal out of it. I took 15 minutes to write a post. Normally, when I write, maybe 100 people see it. This story resonated with so many parents who are tired of being told they are insensitive for bringing young members of humanity along on something like a family vacation at a hotel that caters to families. As for the screaming all night, it was 4-5 times for less than 5 minutes each and I agree that the correct way to handle any problem would be to address it. Communicate the issue so someone can do something about it. Complaining in a mean and anonymous fashion after the fact didn't help anyone. Thanks for reading.

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  55. By laying the downfall of the human race on selfish people (arguable) and indicating that having a child with you is selfish (ridiculous assertion) and for going on about how much better a parent they were because their kids were never allowed in such a place and therefore allegedly never disturbed anyone (bullshit). One doesn't need an excuse for a baby that wakes up crying 4-5 times in a night for 5 minutes or less. That is the nature of babies. Personally, I find neighboring toilet flushes irritating when I'm in a hotel. Should I write nastygrams to all who dared flush in the night? What if a fire alarm goes off? Who do I blame? Don't be obtuse and don't be a victim, that's my advice.

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  56. A baby crying while teething is not a "kid behaving badly" nor do "parents" fit it into any stereotype you'd like to label us with.We have a plethora of opinions and feelings, just like those without children. I certainly don't want you to raise my children, so I'm glad we agree on that part.

    Perhaps you should take your retail complaints to your management or the parents who are insulting you. It has nothing to do with this story and your general attitude makes me sick as well. Let's not hang out, OK?

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  57. They are out there. Thanks for stopping by.

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  58. I think offering parenting advice based on such little information is kind of silly. Maybe it was handled correctly, maybe it could have been handled better. I'm not ready to make that call from my laptop. Also... it's WalMart, not the Ritz Carlton. Short of screaming and throwing product, I'm not sure I'd feel the need to lay down the law either. I do agree that removing a child, when possible, if they are causing a scene is usually a good option for all involved. I don't want my kids to be the target of angry looks and words and I don't want to go to jail for explaining too loudly what someone who can't overlook a little misbehavior should do. People don't always behave in an orderly fashion, why do we expect the youngest to do so more than adults?

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  59. A gentle walk with a teething toddler on a ski slope at night? I can relate to some of what you say, but a teething toddler is not "misbehaving" and one cannot PARENT their way past the situation by teaching them how they are affecting other people. It is cognitively beyond their brain capacity at such an age. By the way, the baby cried up to 5 minutes on 4-5 occasions for 2 nights, hardly a vacation ruining event for most, but if it is a problem I just think the wiser move is to make the issue known to the hotel so you can get some relief instead of grinding your teeth all night for two nights then writing a nasty letter.

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  60. Last year we took our 3 and 4 yr olds (and our 13 yr old) on a ski trip to NZ. My kids were awesome, they were kids. What really pissed me off was the drunken moron that decided that 4am was an excellent time to belt the living hell out of the door in the next apartment and scream to be let in, for two hrs. The door swings both ways people....It happens, it sucks, move on...

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  61. Omfg I'm sick of this parent-butthurt crap. Ya I'm sure I was a pain in the butt to people as a kid, but you know what? My parents were actually bright enough to figure out when we needed a sitter because the activity or situation was not age-appropriate and knew not put our family in situations that would annoy the fuck out of everyone. You dont have the right to ruin other peoples vacation, trips, or evenings out because you think your little dumpling is too good to stay at home. Yes, it may mean that when your children are young, you might not be able to go out as much or to your usual "hangouts", but guess what, those are the sacrifices you make for your kids. And if you don't want to make them, then maybe you shouldn't have had the kid.

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  62. I'm sure there are other areas around the hotel that were not a ski slope. Where the kids would play, as you said yourself earlier that kids like snow. I also said two other options: the quiet lobby, or take a drive. I understand kids at that age don't understand what they're doing is wrong, they're too young. But you can still parent your child once they're walking/talking. You said small humans should have the right to experience the world, and to me that means anyone under the age of 12 (when they should know how to behave in public). Therefore, kids under 12 should be parented on how to be a functioning member of society and be polite in public. Yes, this person did not deal with it very effectively, and I'm not condoning their actions. But I think the parents of the teething baby could have dealt with the situation differently as well, as I stated earlier.

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  63. Kids need consistency, and your job as a parent is 24/7/365. That's what you signed up for when you decided to have kids in the first place. If it's okay at Walmart, then it's okay everywhere else too. Kids can't distinguish between the Ritz Carlton and Walmart, and you need to keep the same rules for everywhere you go. It doesn't matter where it is, it's still in public. Consistency makes it easier on kids to understand what is okay behavior and what's not. And yes, people don't always behave in an orderly fashion, but people give them glares and pass judgement just as much as they do children. If someone is drunk and belligerent I'm just as upset as if some kid was misbehaving.

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  64. HA HA! Oh..ha. oh seriously, stop, you're killing me. Let's take the screaming baby out of the warm hotel room in the middle of the night to make him more calm. Said no parent. Ever.

    Saying that you can't do much with a teething or sick baby or infant is not the same as encouraging 'neglectful parenting'. Encouraging folks to deal with the matter in a courteous manner and have some compassion for the parents (I promise you, their night was a thousand hells more than yours) is not the same as 'discipline'. Most parents nowadays do not have a "village" to help raise the child, or take the baby for their own much needed vacation- you are definitely not giving them any village-support either.

    Part of me feels a sense of cosmic, smug, karmic self-righteousness at these egocentric folks that keep insisting that children can be contained within a bubble that doesn't disturb the confines of the universe (which apparently has now spread to include anyplace with oxygen, including the hotel room next to yours). Do you know why? Because one day very soon, my little grinchy friends, you are going to have something happen in which you are treated the same way and can't do anything about it. You may have a screaming child at 2 a.m. for no reason. You may spontaneously crap your pants at an airport and need the kind sweater of a passing stranger to hide your shame. You may become older and deaf and chew and say "huh" very loudly and not be able to help it. Do you know why? Because we are human, and so are little kids and babies and the brave parents trying to take care of them.

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  65. I have a 15 minth old daughter and my husband is in the Army. So you wanna kno what he missed? The first SEVEN months of her life. I was alone. She was a newborn who needed to eat every two hours for the first month because she was a premie. And she wasn't strong enough to drink from a bottle so we had to feed her with a small tube attached to a syringe. And you would not believe the comments I got while I was out with her and feeding her with "The Syringe". Apparently I was feeding my newborn drugs, I was a lazy mom for not breastfeeding even though it was physically impossible for me, her dad was a "deadbeat" boy did I lay into people for that one. I've flown essentially cross country three times and had people complain about her talkng too loudly. Seriously, when she got to the babbling stage and just wanted to look around and talk to everyone on the plane, someone requested I be escorted off the plane. People don't know what other people are going through in the I lives and make snap judgements and say stupid things because of it. I totally understand your sister and brother in law cherishing their family time like that. We do too. Especially before a deployment, and we spent many nights in a hotel shortly before he deploys because we got out of our lease and then his deployment order got delayed a couple of weeks. It wasn't the Ritz Carlton, but with a newborn in the room I guarantee people called to complain about the baby who was crying every 2 hours on the dot (and maybe complaining about the momma and daddy crying too but thinking it was the baby). Life happens, seems shit hits the fan more often in military life, as we're probably going to be living in a hotel again when he gets out of the Army later this year. Hope she doesn't stsrt cutting teeth, we might get a bitchy letter. And I guarantee you my husband will rip the letter writer a new one. You're spot on in your observations. I had no choice but to take her with me pretty much everywhere while he was deployed because she was a premie and, frankly, no one else could care for her until she hit the four month point because of all of her medical issues. Can't not get groceries or put gas in the car or buy diapers or clothes or pay bills or go to doctor's appointments. I had to do it. She can't help that she's a baby and those people writing that letter Clearly Do Not have a clue about how babies work and the REAL role a parent should play in their life.

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  66. Thank you, Laura. I agree.

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  67. I agree. Why do some members of the "human hive" think that children or babies are not part of that hive? Children are younger, smaller members but they are us. We can desire and carve out parts of the community as "child free" and I'm all for it. When I want to get away, I want to get away, but the idea that just because I don't have children with me at the moment means that I should not have to be subjected to the natural inclinations of children is ridiculous. Children are here. Always have been, always will be. If you prefer an environment absent children then you need to seek it out. It's like not wanting to be around specific race or something. I just don't understand. Seek out your child-free existence, but do not ask a species to abandon the idea of life with procreation and experience which includes the young, the middle-aged and the old. We are all the same. Just different experience.

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  68. I love when people disagree with other people opinions and call them "butthurt" what an incredibly wonderful term for dismissing everything that doesn't match with your own ideas of the world. As for "age-appropriate" who decides such a thing if not the proprietor of an establishment? This hotel offers a kids' club and cribs for the rooms. Why should a parent assume their child is not welcome based on the off-chance that they might disturb a person who doesn't want to hear any children? I don't think heading to a convention as a family is just another in a series of "hangouts" that a person might want to do like the old days, they refuse to let go. Where is the line? Can one bring a child into a 7/11 if they might cry? What about the library? There is a line and we can debate it, but to assert that line lies this side of a family orientated hotel is absurd.

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  69. And would taking a child into the hallway and to the lobby disturb less people than staying put in your room and getting the child back to sleep within a few minutes? The point I think we may not be together on here is that the parents were unaware their baby was keeping anyone awake outside of their room. The child woke up 4-5 times per night and cried for less than 5 minutes each time. No one called the front desk, no one called the room. No one slid a note under the door during the "disruption." Someone complained after "suffering" for two days in an anonymous fashion when they were checking out. If not guessing how our actions could potentially make another person uncomfortable or create a disruption for them is "selfish" then we are all quite selfish and we shouldn't single out caretakers of children as if they are the primary culprits. Everything you do, could upset or bother someone else. If those people don't say something about it then what? They are just victims? Oppressed victims of a group that wants to ruin their lives and vacations (i.e. parents)? If your mattress was stiff, would you tell the front desk or leave a letter for the maid on the last day?

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  70. And good for you for standing up for them by the way, first time mums put themselves through enough guilt as it is without some a-hole blaming them for their child screaming. I honestly don't know where some people get off, especially when they themselves are parents. I mean, seriously?

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  71. I can see both sides of this.
    I don't want to spend my vacation next to a crying baby. But then again, I'd be smart enough to call the front desk and ask about possible options. If it was really bad I'd probably end up going to their door and asking if I could get them some milk or something for the kid.
    I also have 2 kids. If I'm going on a vacation odds are that they're coming with me as I don't have the resources to fund 24 hour childcare for a period of several days. Children are annoying at times; they cry and whine and throw stuff around sometimes and that's the way that life is. A crying teething infant is no fun for anyone but it happens to every baby so folks might as well just get used to the idea. Regardless of all that, if the resort is child friendly then the irritated lady should have taken that into account when she booked the reservation. Life happens, get over it and get on with it.

    And two things... 1) The person that thinks one should take a crying teething baby out of a warm hotel room and out into the snowy night is clearly delusional. 2) For those that had parents wealthy enough to leave them in childcare for days at a time - at what age were you finally allowed to leave the house?

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  72. I'd be angry too if I'd paid for a hotel room and someone's screaming kid kept me awake. Regardless of the situation/cause, I don't like the sound of crying babies. In fact, I don't think anyone does.

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  73. I understand why the letter writer was angry, but I would have asked the front desk to move me to a different room instead of just listening to the crying for two nights and leaving a nasty note.

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  74. Like I said before, it could have been handled better by the other person. I'm not arguing that. But it sounded like from the letter that the crying was consistent, for long drawn-out periods of time. In that case, yes I would take a kid outside. They won't melt.

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  75. The child free never asked a species to "abandon the idea of life with procreation". Right here we have the slippery slope fallacy: if a small group of people choose to not have kids, that must mean they want everyone to not have kids. It's an unfair assumption and it's really just not true. In addition, you say that you're all for a part of the community being carved out for the child free. But whenever this is the case, parents get all up in arms about how "it's discriminatory towards children, and they have as much right to be there as adults, so why is this place off limits to kids?". I've seen it happen, I've seen parents complain because they can't take their kids in specific places. I think most parents (not all) feel entitled to things and when it doesn't go their way then they make a big stink and those former "child free havens" are now all-ages. The Childfree have to stand up for what we want. We're not asking for much. We're asking for adult-only outlets.

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  76. If you need a village to raise a kid, maybe you shouldn't be having a kid in the first place. Anyway, I have dealt with crying babies and sometimes they DO need to be taken out of their surroundings and calmed down in other places.


    People that want a few hours' time without being bothered by screaming or obnoxious kids do have the right to that, because we didn't choose to have kids. YOU did. We have no choice in the matter, so don't force us to deal with your choice. I understand if you're trying to get it under control, but a lot of parents in this day and age don't. They allow their kids to misbehave in public and that's not okay.


    I think it's rude that instead of allowing yourself to be open to someone else's point of view, you feel the need to attack us and wish nasty things on us. Maybe we're not so ego-centric… You assume that because you think kids are cute and wonderful, then everyone must as well and everyone just has to deal with your choice to have them.

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  77. No one made an argument that people should "like" the sound of crying babies. the question is how do adults respond to stimuli they find objectionable.

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  78. Yes, melting is not the issue. Freezing perhaps. The whole take the kid down the hall and have them wake extra rooms on the say to the lobby or wherever else is just silly. The baby was put back to sleep within a few minutes each time. Faster than one could even bundle themselves and a baby for a walk outside which would eventually end with having to walk back in and potentially have more crying.

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  79. I do not feel the way you say all parents feel. I'd be happy to write a letter to any parent who things there kids should be allowed everywhere. We're not talking about everywhere. We're talking about a family hotel.

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  80. I don't choose to take in carbon dioxide with every breath either. I don't choose to smell a foul odor in a public restroom. I don't choose to wait in traffic on the highway. Some things are inherent to life. Children are part of that. You keep talking about "they" and children and "misbehaving" you are having a hypothetical argument while I am having a specific discussion. This is not a misbehaving child, it is a baby communicating pain. If you can't come to understand the difference then I'm not sure why we are still talking. You are definitely not ego-centric though and you are totally right that my whole point was all kids are cure and wonderful (when and where did I say that again?). Your position has no standing in logic, reality or morality. Children are not pets or cigerettes. They are people. If you don't like a certain class of people, then it is up to you to find places you can avoid them, not for them to avoid running into you.

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  81. TeaTime8, Way to display a classic example of the individualistic mindset that is the deterioration of the American family and continue with the peevish "I'm not selfish, you're selfish" rage of the original letter-writer. I think you're just being an attention-seeking troll at this point, because I can't imagine anyone who is capable of typing at least one sentence to be so wittingly stupid as to believe that taking a young child out of a hotel room at night is a great way to calm him/her down, or that it is reasonable for someone to tell a parent that if they can't stop their child from crying in a hotel room next door they should not have children or not go out anywhere with the child. I think the result would be a pretty standard example of a horrible adult who thinks default judging and their own self-vindication rules their world and others.
    I don't think Dad on the Run, or myself for that matter, are not advocating gentle discipline and helping a child to learn to be considerate of others....and it is a process by they way, unless we follow your lockbox/masking tape/chastity approach. But a small child who cries a little in a hotel room next door and the parents are greeted by a nasty anonymous letter the next day? Not exactly a learning opportunity on social behavior there. I have no problem with anyone's point of view, provided it's not a judgmental or oppressive opinion that is being forced onto someone. I don't think you have to put up with a child you don't like or accept my opinion as your own, so you can go on your merry way. Just don't expect others to agree with you, or not leave the nursery for fear of their baby's burp ruining your day.

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  82. And laughing at your silly, controlling opinion is not attacking you. Laughing that a small child who cries a few times in a hotel room equates to children running around like sociopathic rioters. Laughing at your last sentence in which you really showed your true colors: sorry you have to be "bothered by screaming or obnoxious kids", because obviously all of them are.

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  83. And that's fine, I'm glad. I'm just pointing out that that's how it goes sometimes. I'm not arguing about the hotel at all. Again, I said most parents, NOT ALL. It's in the comment.

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  84. I'm not arguing about the hotel though. I understand your frustration with the person at the hotel, and I agree that it wasn't dealt with properly. Never do I condone their behavior. I'm also saying that there are not many places that do cater to people wishing to avoid kids. Like you said in your comment, it's not up to parents to have their kids avoid running into me. In today's society, that means there are no places that we can go to avoid them, because like you said, parents can bring their kids anywhere. There aren't many places to go, and when people do try to get away, oftentimes there's a parent that chooses to bring a kid into an adult place (babies in bars etc). I'm not trying to make you mad, I'm saying there aren't many options. I see your point and I understand your side of the situation. I'm asking you to maybe take a look at mine.

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  85. All right, that's fair. But like I said before, the letter implied that it was a longer period of time. I'm sorry that my advice does not apply to your situation. If the baby was screaming for half an hour, I think it would apply. And like I said before, taking a drive was an option as well. Nice and warm in the car. I can admit that I was wrong, and yes, that's not the best solution to your particular problem.

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  86. I'm not assuming you don't know what you are talking about because you are not a mother. I very much know that you don't know what you are talking about because you still advocate taking a small teething child down the hall to wake others or outside. At night. In the dark. In the cold. And still calling it practical advice. Newsflash, by the way, getting a child back to sleep when they are teething in the middle of the night usually involves a dark, calm, familiar place and a boob/pacifier/bottle, not a bright hallway or lobby.And calling the alternatives lack of, bad, or dismissive parenting. If one is going to be teething and crying, being under the age of 3 and in the comfort of your own hotel room and mom and dad's arms is exactly where they should be. The problem is you are equating this situation, and pragmatic, considerate parents who handled it in the best way possible, and like myself have probably interrupted many of their own dinners and walked their usually-angelic but suddenly-fractious child around the block so we don't disturb the reasonable calm another adult can expect, with some theoretical parents who let their children run loose like a stampede of crack-vamped wildebeests, just because the situation exists. And by the way, saying the parent should leave the hotel room or not bring the child is imposing your opinion on another.
    You've been steadily backing down from your extreme version of 'don't birth/don't bring if they don't-shut-up' approach for good reason- because no one here is excusing a parent who lets a child run around willy-nilly at the expense of others, but we all do understand that there are circumstances in which a child may cause a minor disturbance to your world, like other humans in your world, in which it can't be helped much. Traffic. Bank lines. A coworker coughing at work who ran out of sick days. A teething baby who cries a little at night in her own hotel room. The social expectation is for us as adults to understand this, to be lenient, and to take considerate, direct action if need be. And in these cases, your approach is not applicable, tolerant, or even considerate.

    My comments- calling your approach silly or laughable, are not snide. Snide indicates the kind of indirect, passive aggressive behavior Dad on the Run is pointing out, and which you seem to be advocating. Rest assured, your talking points are laughable because they are absurdly impractical and inconsiderate, not because I take joy in name-calling.

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  87. All I'm focusing on is how you are comparing a small child teething in a hotel room to a child that is being truly obnoxious, and now you are really backing down from that. Positive? Common ground? Not relative to me disagreeing with the impracticalities of your opinion, but it looks like you're heading that way more and more each post....so keep it up.

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  88. That may be the question for you maybe. For me however, the question for me is why would a person willingly take a teething baby to a resort when you know it would upset other paying guests? And let's not even mention the fact it won't remember or appreciate the experience.

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  89. I never compared a teething child to a child that is being truly obnoxious. Two separate conversations, and I only said that misbehaving kids need to be disciplined. Nowhere did I say a baby needs to be disciplined. Again putting words in my mouth. If you're determined to be unaccommodating, ignore what I actually said, and get up on your high horse about how you MUST be right, there's no way your opinion could be wrong, that's fine. Glad I don't have to meet you in person.

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  90. For the same reason one would drive into an area about to have an earthquake. You don't know it's happening until it's happening.

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  91. Sensory deprivation tanks? I see you've gone straight for the straw man argument. Look it up.

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  92. Sometime I employ hyperbole. Look it up.

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  93. You also employ typical "I'm never wrong" passive-aggressive breeder responses.
    I'm so glad you're not the father of my kids if you can't handle unpleasant truths. Man up.

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  94. Then you should have worn a condom instead of having a kid.

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  95. What if, what if, what if.
    What if the parent (you) are just lazy, and don't care about others? That's what I'm seeing.

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  96. What a lame response. Children are optional.

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  97. Im sorry but regardless of what you do for a living you are not entitled to ruin everyones sleep and vacation with a screeching infant. Who on this earth doesnt know that teething babies are cranky and discontent? Let alone parents. If your sister needs a change of scenery fine, keep in mind that it was her choice to have a baby and her choice to spend her days cooped up with it. That isn't anyone elses problem. I dont see why people paying good money for an enjoyable vacation need to suffer because your sister was getting stir crazy. If you want a holiday but have a teething baby in tow the reasonable options are to 1- find childcare arrangements or 2- accept that with parenthood comes a certain bit of sacrifice and change and more often than not u need to suck it up and miss out. You technically CAN still do whatever you please but you shouldnt. That being said I agree that the letter is bitchy and unnecessary but your family members had no right to impose their child on everyone else. Very selfish and entitled behavior.

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  98. Sounds like the author of the letter should read this. http://dadrambles.com/3-word-never-want-child-say/ GET OVER IT! You were a child too.. you screamed... and probably in places that weren't the ideal situation. Give the parents a break, like noted in the post, they were doing the best they could given the situation.

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  99. "selfish living". THIS IS THE ROOT OF IT ALL. The author of the letter has been led to have the false belief that life is fair, and that they, as a tenant of the room next door, have rights to a utopia in their room. They expressed their "selfish living" in the letter, that is obvious.

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  100. In the circumstances of the letter ... I dunno. I can see both sides. If I were going to a resort where the activities were strongly adult based, I think I would also be irked if I were kept up multiple nights in a row by a screaming baby.


    I think my knee jerk problem with your response to the letter is how you insist that your brother in law and sister are better people than the complainers. How your brother in law "helps more people before breakfast than you do all day" and basically say that the complainers are scum of the earth and your family are so much better human beings than they are and they deserve to do whatever they want no matter how it impacts other people (which is, quite honestly, how your response reads to me).


    Was their letter a nasty, mean, rude, unnecessary thing to do? Yes. Was your response, judgement, and personal attack on the people who sent it justified? No.

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  101. Most of the conversation regarding the letter is occurring over on that post, I was hoping for a more general discussion here. However, I insisted no such thing. The letter was very purposefully written in an "over the top" ironic tone. I mentioned specifically, at the beginning and again at the end, how any judgement regarding the author was hardly fair. It was just as fair as the author's assertion that the world would be a better place with fewer people like the parents in question. That is the only reason occupation came up, because I think it is relevant if one is going to lay the health of the greater society at the feet of someone who has has drawn their ire.The whole thing was deliberately written to bring to the light the common logical leap people make in thinking that someone who has inconvenienced them is a bad, evil or selfish person. There is no background, no context to the assumption.

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  102. I agree with that. I'm not saying we don't have an obligation to be courteous and aware of how we affect others though. Just that we can't be expected to assume our presence is going to disrupt someone. I run into people all the time I find bothersome, unpleasant or even disruptive to the regular flow of life... so what? There are people that find others who step on sidewalk cracks to be bothersome. The supposition seems to be by those who feel a certain way that everyone else does too. I would posit that the same baby would have not woken up a percentage of the population, and that many others would roll over and go back to sleep, still others would be disturbed by much less. Where does the impetus lie? Do we all carry on as if everyone as sensitive as the next? I don't know. I think it's an interesting conversation.

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  103. Think it throughMarch 1, 2014 at 4:59 PM

    Couldn't the "selfish living" argument just as easily be applied to those who believe they have the self-interested right to take newborns to a ski resort, despite how disruptive that would inevitably be to the other customers there?

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  104. There is no newborn in this example.

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  105. My argument was not that either the parents or the author was "selfish living" the question was, where is the line between living and selfish living?

    Where does the "selfish" thing come in? Is the loud snorer selfish if he doesn't know he's going to wake someone? What if he does wake them and they don't say anything? What if they do? Should he have stayed home? I'm not saying there isn't a line between inconsiderate and just "being." I'm asking where it is? Someone running around in the middle of the night, slamming doors and screaming at others would certainly be inconsiderate in my book (whether it be a drunken guest or a kindergartner) although I can imagine situations where such a disturbance might be justified. On the other hand, what about a guy above who has frequent seizures and knocks over something or falls out of bed? Should we assume that everything that bothers us could have been avoided and is therefore indicative of a selfish person?

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  106. Think it throughMarch 1, 2014 at 5:14 PM

    Exactly...There's so much flawed logic in the original post, I honestly don't know where to begin. Let's start off with just one of your underlying assumptions: that not travelling with newborns to certain places, like ski resorts, is the same thing as never, ever taking children outside of their homes. C'mon. It's obvious that those are not the same things. There are spaces and places on this planet where it is not necessary or wise to take very small children. As a parent of small children, you are not entitled to do whatever you want with them, whenever you want, regardless of the effects, however unintended that they may be, on others. If you can't differentiate between taking your children to the park or a grocery store and, say, taking them on a long plane ride simply for their parents' desire to vacation to a sunny locale across the world, then I don't know how to help you. As a parent, you simply must have the basic ability to discern situations that are appropriate for your child AS WELL AS appropriate for others in contact with your child. It comes down to basic consideration for others. You might think of the woman in the other hotel room as selfish and unbearably nasty for writing the note, but I don't see it that way at all. I see it as a frustrated, sleep-deprived patron giving a tip, as an experienced mother, on the types of places that are prudent to take small children to and those that are not. I highly doubt she stewed for days, busily scheming up the way to be meanest to your sister. In fact, I'd bet she decided that the first sleepless night next door to a screaming infant was a result of that traveler's "bad luck" that you'd referred to and to tough out for that first night. After the second night, however, she'd probably felt the need to communicate her message to the less experienced parents next door: That there are times and places that are appropriate for small children and it is your responsibility as a parent (and no one else's) to figure that out. If I were you, I would take that old school advice. There's some wisdom and common sense in there, if you're open to learning from it.

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  107. Think it throughMarch 1, 2014 at 5:17 PM

    Ok. *baby small enough to cry 4-5 times during the night.

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  108. You aren't reading much into what I'm saying. I'm trying to keep up with your argument though. Is your position children shouldn't be at any hotel? Or just certain age kids, at certain hotels? What about a 14 month old at a hotel which provides cribs and publicly advertises their own "kids' club"? I'm just looking for definition of the "rules." What are you saying about the grocery store or an airplane ride? Allowed or not? Is that a hard line or does it change, for who? and when? Parents take responsibility for their children, that's pretty much our main task. We do not take responsibility for the numerous levels of tolerance in the general public for child behavior. Do you see what I mean? I think a child hitting me with a bat is unacceptable. Others think a child yelling out once on a bus is unacceptable. Not everyone feels the same about it, so short of the hotel presenting a "no kids" policy, I'm not sure why a parent should be thought selfish for bringing a child.

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  109. That's all babies and toddlers and preschoolers too actually.

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  110. That's simply not true and you know it. There are plenty of babies and toddlers and pre-schoolers who do not cry 4-5 times a night. Let's try to at least keep some sense of perspective and reality here.

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  111. Um. The "small human" is not experiencing the ski resort. He or she will have no memory of the resort, the trip, the hotel, or the experience. He/she is there because the parents brought him along on their experience. Let's not make this about putting kids in some kind of sensory deprivation chamber and never letting them "experience the world".

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  112. Ok, I get your response to me and to others, but I just can't agree.


    My problem is that parents are always using the "that's life" and "deal with it" along with the "you were once a kid too" justification to take their kids everywhere and let them act like hooligans and think that everyone should just shut the eff up and accept it because "kids will be kids". And if we object we're (to use your words) "entitled and unrealistic".


    I totally understand that kids cry. I totally understand that kids are not always controllable. I get all of that. But the number of entitled parents who act like their little terrors should be allowed to do anything and everything and everyone else should accept it have made it a lot harder for parents who are truly dealing with a once in a while situation.

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  113. Your assertion was "baby small enough to cry 4-5 times during the night." I am simply indicating this common behavior is not limited to babies. In fact, night terrors are quite common in much older children and is a much louder proposition. You continue to attack pedantic parts of my position while skipping over the real questions I'm asking. So when you tell me to keep perspective while completely ignoring the nuance of the argument and the language we're both using to make our points I guess I'm at a loss for how to proceed with the discussion. Some kids cry at night. Most kids don't cry every night. This toddler cried several times a night for 2 out of 7 nights onsite and cries rarely at night "normally" so it seems a reasonable thing that the parents are not being selfish for opting to travel with a person who is normally not disruptive. Even if we can get to that discussion, and agree or agree to disagree, I'm still curious about the numerous examples of people who are involuntarily disruptive? Do you really think everyone should agree with your personal thoughts on child travel etiquette and what constitutes selfish behavior or can we agree the issue is not nearly so black and white at might seem on the surface?

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  114. Memory and experience are two different things. Is a person with less memory less entitled to experience? I don't really think the argument is skiing vs. sensory deprivation tank, that was hyperbole I'll freely admit. The whole discussion once again boils down to reasonable expectations. I think it's a reasonable expectation that a hotel room will not be silent within such a situation whether children are present or not.

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  115. The problem is that people "always" use the word "always." As for being a kid, I think that is a shared experience for us all. When you say take them "everywhere" you set up even more of a false argument. I don't think kids should go "everywhere" but at a friendly resort hotel, I think the message from the proprietor is clear. Hooligans... again with conflation of completely different situations. I'm unaware of anyone who thinks there kids should be allowed to "anything and everything" and that everyone else should accept it. If you can give me an example of such a parent, I might write them a letter as well, because I agree with you on that point.

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  116. Um. I'm not the one who made the original comment about "crying 4 or 5 times a night". So your comment that I "continue to attack pedantic parts" of your position is out of line. It shows that you're knee jerk defensive about what you're saying and not actually paying attention to what anyone is saying ... or who is saying it.


    You seem to think that everyone should agree with YOUR thoughts on child travel etiquette - in that it's no different from any other disruption and that objecting to it makes someone selfish and entitled.


    Not every disruption is equal. Saying that it's ok to let your kid cry for multiple nights and disturb others is ok because [name other disruption] is false logic. It's like saying no one has a right to be sad because other people are sadder. Or no one else has a right to be happy because other people are happier. It's not a zero-sum game here.

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  117. I did confuse with the original commenter since you were calling out my retort in the same thread though your argument was indeed pedantic. My deepest apologies on confusing the author of the comment. I see, from that mistake you can now disqualify my original statement while not answering any of the questions, lovely trick of logic you employ as well. I did not posit that all disruptions are equal. I asked how do we decide where "life happens" ends and "you're a selfish a-hole" begins. You seem more interested in a right vs wrong on the original situation. I understand and hear your argument despite you being floored by the fact that I might hear it without agreeing. I don't think everyone should agree with my ideas, that's why I wrote a post inviting conversation on the subject with specific questions and items we could discuss about living verses being selfish. I'd be thrilled if we could talk about that. Instead you say, things like "let your child cry" which simply indicates a chasm in your understanding of children, so it's hard for me to discuss the nuance of "letting" a child act like a hooligan and having a child which has an issue preventing normal sleep (as will happen). I'm serious about wanting input on the questions I ask in the post, but that is not something I'm seeing addressed by you or any previous commenter.

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  118. Let's just put this simply.

    It is NOT selfish or entitled behavior to bring a child to a child-friendly resort.

    It IS selfish (and stupid) to go to a child-friendly resort and then get pissy that there are kids there.

    Don't like kids? Don't go to a place where there are going to be kids. It's like going to the zoo and then getting upset that there are animals there. A kid-friendly hotel will have kids. Sorry if you're not happy with it, but that's the reality of the situation. If you don't have the sense to stay out of places that will offend you then who's fault is
    that?

    And here's the kicker - she didn't know that it was a teething baby. It could have been an autistic child having a
    couple of bad nights. It could have been a child with a broken bone (skiing can do that) crying as they wait for the next dose of pain meds. It could have been my son crying because his Tourettes tics were so bad they were disrupting his sleep. None of these kids should be denied the chance to go on holiday simply because they might inconvenience someone who knew IN ADVANCE that kids would most likely be there.

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  119. Yes !!! Loved your reply !! Let's be bffs lol

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  120. I think it's incredibly disheartening to read all the comments that say the parents are the bad guys in all of this. While I agree that the letter writer has every right to be upset that they were kept up, I also feel they had many other options available to them to fix the situation. The parents of the child, obviously, had no idea that this would happen. It's incredibly hard to believe that any parent that has commented (or chosen not to comment) has never been suddenly struck by a bout of teething baby. I know I have. I know I would not want to be kept awake by someone else's screaming baby, but I also would have done something about it instead of leaving a passive aggressive note. Children can be unpredictable when they are young and who the hell is anyone to tell a parent they cannot go out and enjoy what the world has to offer! Regardless if a person chose to have a child or not, it's a bunch of BS that parents these days are having to teach their children that society is full of a bunch of child hating a**holes.

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  121. First of all parents can't control a child's teething! That does not make them bad parents! People like you make me sick! Children cry when they are sick,hurting, or hungry. Since they cannot tell you exactly what's wrong, they cry. It's like a guessing game trying to figure it out! So we are not suppose to get a vacation because we are parents? As for the whole selfishness comment, no babies cannot ski, but should that stop a hard working father from spending time with his family? No! As for you, I think maybe your parents should have spent a little more time with you, maybe then you wouldn't be so bitter! As for your job, quit if you don't like it! Quit complaining because you actually have to work!

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  122. Hey parent of the year how does one "shut her kid up"? They did not intentionally take their child to wake up the freaking people next door! I feel very sorry for your kids if you even have any because I'm sure your idea of shutting a child up borders child abuse. And if you do not have kids then you don't know what you're talking about and your opinion is useless here.

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  123. I see a lot of "buck passing" on your part Mr DadOnTheRun. You wrote, "Perhaps, if you had yelled back or pounded on the headboard, then the thinness of the walls would have been more evident to the struggling parents." What would that have accomplished? Was your sister going to cover the infant's mouth to muffle her cries? Unlikely. If they had confronted your sister, it very well could have turned into a violent confrontation- these scenarios often do. Naturally the other patrons would have been hesitant. However, from your glowing description of your beloved sister, she is smart enough to know that crying babies can be heard through walls. With that being said, tell me why your sister did not walk that baby down to the lobby as a courtesy to the other hotel patrons who were trying to sleep? Exactly when did her responsibility to control her child end that night? When the door to her room closed? I think not. I have children of my own. Whenever I go into a restaurant with them I ask the waitress to place us at a table far away from other diners because I know that my children are loud and wiggly. I do this out of courtesy to others because I know that my children are not the center of the universe. So, despite your letter, I am agreeing with the people who left your sister the letter. I hope that by the time she takes another vacation with her daughter, she learns a little humility and courtesy.

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  124. You probably feel like parents shouldn't take babies on planes or to restaurants either, I'm guessing? I've never understood when others think that parents should leave their children at home when going on a trip. We are avid skiers, have skied at a lot of resorts all around the country and almost all are very family friendly. Our daughter has traveled on our yearly ski trips with us since she was 4-5 months old. Luckily we've never had any issues, but it would have never occurred to me not to take her. We wanted her there with us as she is a part of our family.


    Honestly, whenever we've stayed in a hotel or some condos it's always been the younger, single crowd that seems to wander around with little consideration of others at all hours of the night. They've always been much more of an annoyance than to us than babies/kids. In the end though we just chalk it up as being part of staying in that type of accommodation. If you want quiet housing find an adult only place or rent a cabin. You will never be able to guarantee that you'll end up with a quiet room staying in a hotel, and all the families with small children, the obnoxious young single people, people who like their TV loud, etc., all paid about the same amount you did for the right to stay there.

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  125. So you think there was no non-violence inducing way to handle the situation and that writing a letter after the fact was the right thing to do? What about calling the front desk. How is that risky?

    You also think walking a child down the halls of the hotel would have resulted in better outcomes for all involved? Crying in the halls is much louder than crying through walls. Not to mention the baby got back to sleep within 5 minutes of each time waking, less time than it would take to get dressed and exit the room and without the concern of waking the baby up again when you return.

    Lastly, we're not talking about "control" and you are very obtuse if you are a parent and don't get that. Does one control a patient in the ER who is in pain? We offer relief and comforting and try to get them to relax. That's what they did and it worked.

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  126. Wow, I hope you are never blessed with children. You were a child once and I'd be willing to bet you weren't a perfect little angel all the time.

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  127. On a very crowded flight back home our son cried for 2 hours. It was hell. He was cutting teeth. We sat next to a very kind, very understanding and maybe she was a little drunk, woman. She never gave us dirty looks, never judged us. She gave our son some french fries, said he was gorgeous made him giggle a bit and told us she remembered her daughter cutting teeth, even though it had already been 10 years. What I'm trying to say is that she empathized. We apologized to our other seatmates and all of them were kind and understanding. I have no doubt that if it had not been for her, they would have been far more judgemental and rude. She taught us a lesson that day, and I am very grateful to her wonderful attitude on that miserable 3 hour flight.

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  128. Wow! Where to begin with this letter? First off, how old are you?! The penmanship can't possibly belong to an adult and if it does, it matches perfectly with your childish attitude. I would love to talk with your parents and inquire if you ever cried or disturbed others, well of course not! YOU are perfect. Children cry, fact of life, also another fact: sometimes there's nothing you can do. Second, why did you not extend complaint or implore assistance from the ski resort you "planned for a year"? A letter is so cowardly, especially since you didn't leave your name. Finally, I would like to address the issue you brought up about selfishness. This family chose to include their child, no matter how young, the challenges, in memories, even if only captured in photo for the child being too young to remember. Talk about selfish, I bet all your kids memories are are "yeah mom and dad went without us all the time" Now, a little about us, we have no children and have been at a romantic restaraunt with a screaming kid and frantic parents. We are not perfect and there are certain kids we wish would leave, but to those frantic ones, we pull candy out of our purse and order wine. Smiling saying " this is how they learn". One mom burs
    t into tears feeling like she was disturbing everyone, relieved beyond comp$are. You can be our hotel neighbor anyday

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  129. Should children, especially small ones, be allowed everywhere, no. Nice restaurant, probably not a good idea. A ski resort, absolutely acceptable. I live and ski in Colorado with my two toddlers and the resorts are nothing but family friendly. I don't know of a single one that advertises "adult only" type getaways. The people who frequent ski resorts who live in this state understand the value of making the enjoyment of the outdoors a family affair. Children are always welcome, snooty attitudes are tolerated.

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  130. The line is arbitrary and very much fluidic. Is really comes down to communication. If you choose not to communicate during a time in which a solution can be made, you have decided that it is not worth your while. Otherwise you are just a resentful, stubborn person, thus the term passive aggressive.

    I personally have ever had my sleep disturbed by a crying child in a hotel, but a flusher or a talker or even a partier, absolutely. And the reaction is dependent on the action. If it is common courtesy in my book, they get an reaction, tyically a call to the front desk. i.e partier. If the noise comes with the territory i.e. flushing, I have to take into consideration the environment. The talker would be a grey area; it really depends on the conversation.

    I've experienced parents "shushing" kids all night in the same room of a cabin. I chose to deal with it, even though I knew damn well they were putting no effort into consoling their except by "shushing". I didn't want the confrontation as they were my best friends in-laws. I surrendered any right to complain to or about those parents the next morning by not bringing the issue up at the time. For all they knew, no one was being bothered because the only ones making noises were their kid and themselves "shushing" the night away.

    If I read the post and responses properly, this woman didn't write the note the very next morning, rather before she left the hotel on the 2nd day after the incident. The amplifies the woman's resentment. And I personally cannot understand why people think everyone is entitled to perfect harmony without taking someone to task who might be jeopardizing their harmony. But people are people and have their own sense of entitlement.

    Dadontherun - you are a well written individual and I trust well educated; probably liberal as well. I say that only because you have a live and let live mentality as most liberals do. But at the same time, you are very tactful in your responses to the naysayers, so perhaps you are a freakish hybrid of some sort.

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  131. I agree 100%.

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  132. At this point in my life, I don't have children. But I can't imagine not traveling with any future offspring. We have family all over the world, am I supposed to tell them we can't visit because our baby might cry on a 10 hour flight?


    I think what this all boils down to is, know your kid. If your kid can generally handle sleeping through the night and is usually well behaved, I see no problem with checking into a hotel room and not requesting that you be further away from other guests. If your kid is having a rough go of it, maybe ask to be put at the end of the hall, away from everyone else. Unless the resort is "adults only," I have no expectation of not running into kids somewhere. And when we do vacation, we make a point to make sure that there are places within the resort that do have some space from the kids area so that we don't have to deal with running and splashing and whatever while we're trying to nap on our beach chairs.


    There are places that small children aren't ready for - five star restaurants, non-kid movies, the opera/theatre, generally places you need to get dressed up and sit still for long periods of time. That's where I'd draw the line. Beyond that, I may give your child the side-eye if they're running rampant in a department store while I'm trying to find new clothes, but unless your child walks up and punches me in the stomach, I'm unlikely to say anything. Unless we're in the subway. If your kid is rough housing in the subway with their friends during rush hour, I will absolutely tell them to knock it off and then give you a nasty look. Know your kids, know your environment, and know what's appropriate behavior.


    Crying in a hotel room? If it bugs me that much, I'm going to ask to move. I'm not going to ask you to remove your children or leave them at home with a sitter because I'm inconvenienced. That's rude.

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  133. I have two very young children and am very aware of my children's behavior in public. I do not take my children to places that are not child friendly. We go to restaurants occasionally but never after their bedtime and only to places that welcome children. Sorry but I think too many parents think that the world revolves around them and offspring. Bringing a baby to a ski resort is selfish. I don't care what the parents do for a living. I'm sure a lot of people at that resort don't get to go on vacations all the time. I would be really upset if I had saved up a ton of money to go skiing and was kept awake all night by someone else's screaming child. Babies do not belong at ski resorts. Period. Im sure that there was a much more child friendly location where they could have stayed.

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  134. They actually would have been glad to move, if the "victim" had simply let their experience be known. Thank you for your response, I agree.

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  135. The hotel and large swathes of the population disagree with you.

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  136. Kudos for standing up for your niece, little sis and brother-in-law. We
    were all babies once, we all had moments and our parents all did their best to
    deal with our inopportune breakdowns.

    Children are a blessing. However, if you don't want to be around babies or
    children, go to an adult only resort or rent a house or condo. Why does
    discrimination still run rampant in this day and age - whether race, age, size,
    etc. We talk about how school children need to stop bullying, yet the adults are
    the ones who teach them it is OK to be judgmental.

    We all have our own story, we are all dealing with various issues and
    struggles. Would the world not be a better place if we just tool the time to put
    ourselves in the other person's shoes? We've all been in hotels where something
    bothered us. It is the nature of the facility. They could have asked to be
    moved, they could have called the front desk and asked them to do something
    about it, they could have knocked on the door and asked if they could help in
    any way.

    A few years ago we were in a hotel with our three kids who were grade
    school at the time. It was for a family funeral and we arrived a little late.
    We were grief stricken and just trying to get settled in and ready for bed
    because we had a long day ahead of us with the funeral, etc. We even missed the
    visitation due to horrible traffic. We hadn't been in the room five minutes
    when the front desk called that the person below complained. Seriously. My kids
    can be as loud as the next kids, but they weren't this time. There were simply
    five people trying to get their luggage in and get settled. We whispered and
    tip toed the rest of the night so the person at the front desk didn't have to
    deal with more complaints, but honestly, with all we had going on, that was the
    last thing we needed. However, we were considerate. Afterall, we had no idea what they were going through or what they had to face in the morning. I would say the same about the rude author but he clearly stated what he had planned for teh next day was skiing.

    In this busy world, quality family time is a rare commodity. We all have
    to do what works for our family.

    Why do people feel the need to beat others down. If you are unhappy in
    your own life, taking the time to rejoice in the beauty of a baby instead of
    focusing on the negative might just make you feel a little better.

    Your relatives went there for a nice time away. Did the insensitive writer
    bother to think the letter might ruining their time and their ability to get
    rest, just like the writer claimed your sweet niece ruined it for them. I am
    sure their children and/or grandchildren were always perfect, as I am sure they
    were as babies. Was it hard for them always being so perfect?.

    Let's all take time to realize we are on this earth together. You don't
    have to be best friends with everyone or even like them, but why do we have to
    judge and make life harder for our neighbors. We need to lift each other up,
    not beat each other down.

    You sound like a great dad, husband, brother and uncle. I hope your sis,
    niece and brother-in-law had a good trip - despite the rude, insensitive person
    and that you continue to write and enjoy your kids. They grow up way to
    fast.

    Thanks for sharing.

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  137. Thanks for dropping a supportive note and sharing your story!

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  138. When you find yourself in a deep hole, Dad On-the-Run, stop digging.

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  139. New reader here - god forbid parents should take their children anywhere lest those children do something to offend some stranger whom you will probably never see again. "I'm sorry honey, I can't take you on this trip. You might offend the neighbors." "Who's the neighbors?" "Oh, I don't know but I can't risk offending them - its either you or them and I chose them. Sorry, but when you're older, you'll understand."

    I cannot get over the fact that people would support anyone harassing a parent for bringing their child on a trip **UNLESS** that parent clearly chose a place that was supposed to be child-free. Family first. Everything else second.

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  140. Hmm...I'm sure olympic/x-games athlete-parents disagree with you.

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  141. You seem to be trying to backtrack from your disgusting attack, the one where you even attacked someones kids (saying you were "sorry for their children"). The one where you called them stupid. You think that this is going to make people forget what you wrote? You think that you can play at being "reasonable"?



    You are the one who spewed hatred and judgement. The original letter lacked tact. Your "response" was vile.



    All you are doing now is posing straw man arguments, miscasting the criticism you received and trying to play like people are saying that anyone who travels with a child is selfish.


    You will probably remove this, but hopefully you will at least read it.

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  142. Freyja MacGregorMarch 4, 2014 at 4:08 PM

    LOVE your letter - theirs was rude and thoughtless. I suppose it didn't occur to them to speak to the hotel and ask to be moved?! Your sister isn't alone - my own daughter at 12 months screamed like a banshee on a recent flight we took, and there were lots of annoyed people, but some of them were wonderful, distracted her, talked to me, and really helped. Here's the thing - you can choose to be miserable and make other peoples day bleed even more than it already does, or you can stick on a smile and try to help!

    Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be nice, always

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  143. It's very simple.

    Babies can (and should be) brought out to places where babies are tolerated, accepted, appreciated, or easily ignored.


    Think:


    Public parks
    Noisy, crowded restaurants (big Cantonese dim sum halls are great-- plus, Chinese people love babies)
    Hotels specifically designed to accommodate families with babies (like Disney hotels with thick wall insulation)

    Places where babies should not be brought-- anywhere that babies would not be tolerated, accepted, appreciated or easily ignored.

    Think:

    Quiet restaurants
    Airplanes
    Movie theaters*

    * If you're going to take the risk of bringing a baby to a movie theater, be prepared to sit in the back and be ready to vacate the theater the second that baby seems ready to cry.

    It's not so hard to figure out, but it does require a modicum of good judgment.

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